What's great about Barking & Dagenham

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hello I'm Toby Fox from 1 and a half

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million new homes the local government

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challenge sponsored by Red Loft and

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weights we're investigating the role of

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local councils in the government's

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National ambition to deliver 1 and a

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half million new homes in this episode

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I'm talking to Caroline Harper who's the

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deputy managing director of beir the

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council's Holy owned development company

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about what makes Barky and dagum so

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special so Caroline here we are in the

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historic heart of

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um tell us what's special what's so

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special about London burrow of Barky and

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dagam um well I think in terms of

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delivery of development it's the scale

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of opportunity that is enormous um there

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is a lot of industrial land here that is

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not utilized as best it should be um and

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um so might not be occupied

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underutilized used for unlawful uses

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particularly of waste but then also

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we've got um from that the scale of land

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that can really deliver housing again I

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keep saying scale but at scale in a way

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that I you know I think is pretty unique

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to London possibly oldo common is the

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only other real Contender on so it's

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tens of thousands yeah exactly um and

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and I think that has it's important for

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lots of reasons you know there is I

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think there's a tendency we can focus on

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the shiny things that London has to

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offer which are important and make

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London a global City but in order for

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those shiny things to operate we've also

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got to have the places that are kind of

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the engine behind it yeah um and barking

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and dagam really offers that so it's you

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know this is an area where we've

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delivered lots of affordable housing but

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there's also the kind of um yes you've

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got the social rent side of things but

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also there's a huge Spectrum isn't there

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between social housing and then right to

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the top let's say Penthouse development

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and the values here are such that you

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can deliver um for those people who are

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part of um I guess uh aspirational

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working londoners is one of the ways

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that we use it yeah um and that is

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that's important for London continuing

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to function as a whole as well as for

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local residents that are here and what

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are the demographics of the people who

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are already here actually here well it's

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a it's a borrow that um is undergoing

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really significant change so if you look

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at the census from: 2011

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it to the census of: 2021

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change it's very diverse um lots are a

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big Muslim population um um but also

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kind of um lots of people from Romania

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and places like that um so that brings

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with it a real kind of cultural mix um

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positives and also some tensions as

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you'd expect um it's a very young borrow

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um so actually bucks National Trends so

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again looking at that comparison between

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2011 and

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2021 um the working age population has

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grown by about 20% whereas for England I

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think it's about 3 and a half% 3.6%

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something like that yeah um and and

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we've got a contract ing kind of over 65

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population so really interesting in

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terms of that Dynamics and what does

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that mean for um employment um and jobs

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um we know we're very keen not to be

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just an anchor for homes because there

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are real economic opportunities here as

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well um so kind of anchoring that that

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place um and um yeah I think I think

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that kind of sums up really and and how

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does that all translate into housing

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need what is the what is the housing

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need in in Bary and dagam yeah um I

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think and it depends on the scale that

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you look at it so you there is a big

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need for and a big political push um of

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be first delivery to date on the council

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site has been very much about affordable

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housing and how does that work um how

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does that work through in terms of

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delivery so um making sure that it's

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affordable for local residents it's one

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of the reasons um that um the council

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having delivered on that H um on homes

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it's one of the reasons that the council

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has a relatively small temporary

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accommodation budget um uh spend um and

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then also um it's um really sort of um

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still got a housing waiting list but

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it's helped to manage that yeah um but

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then there's also the kind of London

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need if you like um so we have to factor

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that in and we're very keen um

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particularly in the kind of B first

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phase 2 of um how do we build on our

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Legacy to date to help um improve land

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values across the borrow and with that

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having mixed community so you know at

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the moment this is probably the most

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affordable B in London um and that has

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its pros and cons um but

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um we don't want to be the most

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affordable barer and therefore this is

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you know a concentration of people who

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who don't have quite poor who don't have

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lots of money can't AFF to live

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somewhere else it's not that is not

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sustainable um and and it also doesn't

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help with actually getting things viable

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and so on and so forth so we need to to

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bring forward a a mix um so

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housing needs to it's got you know um

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it's got to deliver on housing needs

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here but it's also got to deliver on

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housing needs for London with the

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express of bringing forward those mixed

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communities because that's how you get

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sustainability of place Etc yeah yeah

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and and this is all about housing we're

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not really talking about jobs you're

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talking about creating housing for

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people who work elsewhere to look after

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the rest of London but but there's there

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are economic drivers here as well what

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are the main kind of economic drivers

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absolutely um well there again there's

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huge amounts of opportunity

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so the Bor is I think the only place in

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the UK where we've got two existing rail

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heads um which have cross Channel train

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connectivity um and legal and general

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owner site around um box Lane and they

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are working on bringing forward a new

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rail freight terminal there we're

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expecting that to be operational kind of

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um later in the 20s um okay yeah so you

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know that that's happening um one of our

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jobs and we're working with Partners

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like the tempestry growth board is how

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do we harness the regeneration benefits

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from that given that box Lane is right

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next to we call it Castle green which is

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a big strategic Industrial Area um not

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utilized as you would expect for a 21st

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century London so how do we bring in the

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logistics the um um industrial floor

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space that is um fitting for London in

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the 21st century and with it the kind of

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quality jobs that meet needs of people

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living here but also elsewhere in London

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and help with that kind of London's

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function um um yeah as as a global city

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um and then we've also got because we've

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got so much industrial land there are

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other um quite significant pockets of

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that that again need redeveloping and

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there are you know we have temps freep

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Port um um and you know quite that's

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where the Ford uh temp3 Port covers the

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Ford's site they they produce diesel

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engines there at the moment so you know

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yeah that's going to stop at some point

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so they I know that they're looking at

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because diesel engines are being B

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um so if you go on that site ever I mean

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it's incredible it's enormous absolutely

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enormous um and it's how does t Freeport

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and Ford um utilize the kind of benefits

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that come in with being a free port to

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Anchor again um industrial um and when I

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say industrial it's not the kind of

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gritty industrial of the past it's like

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what does London smelting furnaces and

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cling it's not that um but it's um what

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actually do we need again to be

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functioning as a city and what does that

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mean for employment numbers here and

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that's really interesting here

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particularly because barking used to be

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barking dagam used to be synonymous with

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Fords you mentioned for the Motorcar

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manufacturer I mean they were built here

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there were thousands and thousands and

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thousands of people employed building

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cars that's pretty much all stopped

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apart from diesel engines yeah so the 10

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report is so it covers um several

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borrowers so um covers the Ford site in

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barking and dagam then stretches a

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little bit into haing and then over to

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thork um with reports and they've got a

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remit to bring in I think it's about4

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and a half billion pounds worth of

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additional investment so no you know no

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mean task hug yeah absolutely enormous

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um and I mentioned box Lane earlier as

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one of the um rail heads that has cross

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Channel connectivity the other rail head

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is on Ford site um neither of these at

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the moment are utilized in any real

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capacity um and again that offers

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um it's how this works with the port Etc

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um but it offers real um potential

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benefits in terms of our supply chains

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and how we move things around um the

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challenges that we have getting things

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across the channel um currently and then

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what does that mean for motorways the

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kind of road to rail you know this is on

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the river there's safeguarded Wars you

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know there there's real scope here for

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looking ahead in terms of you the short

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medium and long term what does this mean

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for how we get things into London and

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then get things out of London and then

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the connectivity to the Midlands up to

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Scotland Etc so that kind of import

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export side of things um so back to Bros

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tax we need to talk about housing that's

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what we're here for um we talked a bit

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about how you've got very small

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temporary accommodation list so so not

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huge amounts of housing need in in that

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sense but still a need to produce lots

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of houses what are the targets and how

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have they changed so in terms of the

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kind of type of homes that we deliver

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here I think there's there's a

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difference between the council's own um

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sites yeah um which a lot of those are

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estate renewal so that drives you know

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how how do those um sites come forward

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and to dat we haven't cross subsidized

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with um private sale partly because the

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private sale Market here is is

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relatively constrained um the the rental

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market is is almost bottomless yeah um

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and and that's about viability land

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value and desirability for private sale

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yeah okay um and um so that you know

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that impacts the types of I guess the

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kind of housing product that comes

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through um looking ahead so um for where

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the council has land so where the

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council has the greatest control of what

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kind of housing can come forward I think

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there will be a real um real thought

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given to um what kind what what is

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Affordable and is it affordability so we

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see this already coming out with the GLA

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in terms of a little bit of flex um

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their proposals around key worker rental

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product and so on I think um as a sector

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we need to look at um how do we actually

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um really get things going again um you

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know things have incredibly massively

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slowed down if you know um in terms of

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um construction and there's a real

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danger if we don't have sensible

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conversations about well actually what

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is affordability rather than the current

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kind of policy um definitions of

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affordable then nothing will happen and

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we'll still be having these

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conversations going forward so is this

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is this about saying that that what we

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used to call Affordable is no longer

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affordable I don't know if it's quite as

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black and white as that but I think it's

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more than you know there's lots of talk

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about well we need to look at things

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flexibly and you know we need to um we

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need to still make things happen I guess

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my concern is it's not tweaking around

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the edges it's actually sometimes we

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need to look at um slightly

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different more fun FAL changes if we are

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to deliver it so I I give you an example

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on on T's road which is one of our big

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transformation areas and um then three

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and a half thousand homes alongside

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industrial Etc um one of the

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conversations that we've been having is

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well actually could we put um could we

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structure a deal with a third party

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where we um we go in at a certain level

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of affordability but it's done on a

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basis that actually in time potentially

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that rent could be reduced because of

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the Returns on it um and you know we're

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still talking this um through and how

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this could work yeah but actually that

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could unlock it because it will free up

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other sites along T's road to come

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forward for you know Bill to rent um and

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help with the viability and I I you know

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th we are part of those conversations we

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talking to the London housing fund um

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guys about this um and that is happening

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but I don't um

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i' I'd say the conversations are

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happening but we're not at the point

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there that it's kind of in in policy in

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ter how it's coming yeah exactly just an

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idea but that is revolutionary yeah

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because you you're starting about rent

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you're talking about rent starting at a

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high level and then getting lower over

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time because you've paid for the

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building yeah like naturally rents go up

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not down yeah that's really interesting

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yeah um and and and you know there's no

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um this is a this is a working program

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rather than rather than a commitment and

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it might be that actually you know the

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Returns on a building are better put

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into um developing another site and

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coming forward but you need to have

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those kind of conversations and work it

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through and keeping in mind you know um

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the public sector can't drive all of

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this we're all in a world where there is

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limited public purse Council GLA central

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government so therefore we need to make

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things attractive to that private sector

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investment and I I that is potentially

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attractive to them so yeah okay is it

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fair to say that the the targets set by

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the London mayor that come out of the

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targets that are set by government for

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building new homes on an annual basis

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are irrelevant here because you always

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overd deliver or or have you got targets

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which you're striving to reach no we do

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I mean we have policy targets um in the

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local plan and then I think our actually

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our housing on the the new figures that

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have come out barking and dagnam housing

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targets by that metric of actually

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decreased as a Target um which is nuts

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it's actually nuts um given and that's

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just cuz it's a new way of measuring it

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yeah and I mean I I think it's also the

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approach that's taken um and there's you

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know I I know that the GL is looking at

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it in terms of actually let's look at

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this across all of London rather than

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necessarily what's been attributed to

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specific borrowers um and that's

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important because like I keep saying

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there is a loss of opportunity here so

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Kensington and Chelsea where are they

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going to put five ,000 homes we can

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easily accommodate 5,000 homes subject

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to coming overcoming other barriers so I

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can see why housing targets are

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important but fundamentally we are a

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progrowth borrow and we want homes that

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um people can can live in so we need to

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we need to deliver on that so that

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that's not going away so that wraps up

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another episode of 1.5 million new homes

14:53

the local government challenge sponsored

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by Red Loft and weights we're going to

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be back in a few days with another

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episode and we look forward to seeing

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